A traditional mosque. Pic: Synthia K

The Lichfield businessman behind the proposed new mosque in the city has expressed his concern over comments made about the scheme.

Eastern Eye owner Abdul Salam told the Birmingham Post he was “frightened” by remarks made on social networking site Facebook.

The group has attracted 1,600 members objecting to the proposal for a mosque in the city, which was exclusively revealed by The Lichfield Blog last week.

But some residents have now launched an alternative Facebook group backing the mosque plan.

The statement introducing the new group said:

“We should be working towards an inclusive city that welcomes our growing Muslim community. Let’s show some people you don’t have to be prejudiced to live here.”

Founder of LichfieldLive and editor of the site.

124 replies on “Facebook group concerns businessman behind Lichfield mosque plan”

  1. i’m lichfield born and bred. I think it’s great idea to have a mosque (we got some great ones in walsall) but don’t believe there is a suitable site around the city centre to sustain or is large enough for such a magnificent building.

    Certainly building any type of building on what green space is left (ie stowe fields) is totally out of order and this is my only objection. Surely there must be suitable site ,say off eastern avenue, which would be easier to travel too?

    Has any definate plans been put forward as to where a mosque could go etc or has issues been taken out of proportion?

  2. Lichfield council will have to change their road signs, no more three spires graphic on the road signs instead it’ll be ‘City of the Three spires and a golden dome’, plus lots of companies will have to change their name, like: Three spires and a golden dome Motor Company, Three spires and a golden dome badminton club and of course the Three spires and a golden dome Shopping Centre. The possibilities are endless, cream teas served daily at ‘The Three Spires and a Golden Dome Olde English Eatery’ or, Full English breakfasts served before 11.0 at ‘ Three spires and a golden dome Reastaurant’, other benefits for the local light aircraft clubs would be an easier waypoint recognition: .. continue on this heading for 5 clicks and then make a right 180 degree turn at the golden dome at Lichfield,

  3. It is a good idea of building a mosque here.. as we have many races in the coiuntry we must make them this place comfortable

  4. It’s a great idea, people should be able live together peacefully regardless of their faiths. People wouldn’t be complaining so much if a church was being built…there is an eliment of discrimination here.

  5. What a great City, I cannot see the council changing the signs, The Cathedral is fantastic, a mosque will spoil the area of the Cathedral, If you need a mosque, build it on the outskirts pleanty of space off the A38

  6. NO, NO, NO. We are in an English city not Pakistan. If they want to pray in amasque then they should go to a Moslem country!

  7. its obviously some of you dont know these people ! muslims dont want to mix with other faths they hate christians.dont do it litchfield you’ll regreat it !!!

  8. No matter what is written, Facebook will edit it. They will be too afraid of being called racists. One comment: where mosques are established in other parts of the West Midlands, there is a general traffic problem, as thousands attend prayers, parking everywhere with no regard to traffic regulations and block the area for hours. Have the police and authorities considered this? I shuld know, I live within a mile of one, and its chaos, the police are not interested.

  9. As someone who has worked in three Islamic countries I say NO to a mosque in Lichfield. When working in Islamic countries I discovered very quickly that Islam is very intollerant of all other religions, had I demanded a church be built in downtown Dhahran I have no doubt I would have been flogged and thrown in some fetid prison. Yet I come home to England to see our government bending over backwards to accomodate people who have and always will refuse to integrate. As far as a muslim is concerened all none muslims are kuffers or pigs. The UK is not a muslim country, if muslims want mosques they should go and live in an islamic country.

  10. im totally against the mosque,just look at the skyline at the one in Birmingham hidious!! Lichfield a cathedral city no,no,no,thanksi

  11. Christians should remember that it is only through Islam that we are able to enjoy our great culture. When the Roman empire became christianised, attempts were made to eliminate all traces of the previous great Greek and Roman civilisations, and it was only through the Moslem regime which held sway in Spain and North Africa at that time that the West got to hear of Aristotle, Socratres and Plato whose philosophies now form the basis of even Christian thinking.
    As an atheist, I believe we should follow this example of tolerance and allow the mosque to be built, although I think Muslims are as misguided as Christians in believing in God

  12. A Mosque In Lichfield?
    NO! NO! NO! There are too many in this Country already. The Muslims should realise that they are the minority. Great Britain is British and Proud. (When in Rome do as the Romans) I have visited and worked in muslim countries but would never preach politics/Religon on any of the locals due my respect for their laws/religion. And may I say I was never given respect in those countries. Too many Mosques in this country seem to be a hot bed of hatred towards the British way of life. Until that is stopped those that do should be closed and not one more built. We can all live together fine with more respect given to the British way of life.

  13. The muslim faith preaches that Christians are wrong. Why are they deliberately trying ot make their home in a country which goes against ALL their principles ? This is England, a Christian country.

  14. When Christian churches are allowed in Saudi Arabia and christians are allowed to wander freely through all parts of Mecca then we’ll talk about it. Until that time ( and it will never come I assure you ) they can forget about a Mosque in Lichfield. The paper said it was for ” Lichfield’s burgeoning islamic population “. What !! Ive lived there for 18 months now and have seen about 6 !!

  15. Here’s some facts for you; Lichfield population 31,000; Christian percentage 79%; White 98.10%. Muslim population 250 to 500. Look at the facts, don’t believe me check it out. Old Salam knows what he’s doing. These figures speak for themselves. A case of a very small minority causing havoc and disruption and controversy. Make your own conclusions.

  16. Sorry to jump in again but Peter Ford, where are you getting your history from? Massive generalisation ( like me really) and totally incorrect. Don’t watch the documentaries on BBC; do some serious study man.

  17. BOYCOTT THE EASTERN EYE RESTAURANT I used to live in Lichfield, it is a beautiful city. Why do they need a mosque from my experience the only Muslims there either run or work in Indian restaurants.
    I agree with the comments of others a Christian would probably be flogged in a Muslim country for even suggesting that a church be built. I suggest that any one who objects to this suggestion should boycott the Eastern Eye Restaurant. If this man cannot make a living in Lichfield perhaps he will move somewhere

  18. Do not ruin this wonderful city with a mosque, there are plenty available within a short distance.

  19. Question. Would us Christians be allowed to build a Cathedral in Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan or other muslim country, let alone one next to a mosque? I don’t think so!!

  20. Actually yes… Amman in Jordan has many churches, and a couple right opposite a mosque, just across the road… I think a lot of you need to do your research and maybe visit a couple of muslim countries before you judge…

  21. Again… if you did your research then you would know that there are 100’s of cathedrals all over the world including muslim countries such as Pakistan, malaysia and Jordan.

  22. I have visited several and cannot think of much to reccomend them, perhaps this is why so many Muslims live here and not in Muslim counties. Perhaps Sash should move to a Muslim country

  23. Having been brought up in birmngham, i know lots about multiculturalism so have been glad to move out to Lichfield. So called multiculturalism doesn’t exist in much of Birmingham, essentially you have asian areas (small heath, sparkbrook and so on), black areas (handsworth, aston, etc) and white areas (kingstanding, great barr)…..soon we will have muslim cities, schools, more mosques and then their laws and rules……hardly a great advert for intregration, so please no more mosques, especially in lichfield. Lichfield people welcoming a mosque, please go to some of these non white areas of birmingham and see how alienated our old people (and young) have become in these ‘foreign’ communities…..our version of integration is come and live in your own communities and don’t worry about the language or housing or money, just settle together and build your own little (or not so little) communites and don’t worry about mixing with the natives…..and we wonder why we have middle class ‘white flight’ taking away precious skills and resources to replace with unskilled, poor immigrants who drain our housing, hospitals and general welfare…….

  24. NO NO NO and an emphatic NO. As an Englishman, i am proud of my countries heritage and tolerance but at some point we have to get a backbone back and tell these parasites that if they want what they think is true and great to their so called allah, then go to where it is that makes him supposedly so great. The thought of these places spinging up willy nilly without second thoughts for our CHRISTIAN history makes mine and many others blood boil ! as a Gulf War veteran and havin to witness these people tear shreds out of each other for the sake of a “prophet” woteva one of those are, (it could be a boulder don’t forget) i say let them get on with it or come out and stand proud instead of hiding behind Dalek garbs. AAARRRGGGHHHH

  25. Hear Hear Paul White!!!!!!! It’s a natural instinct to be with your own. It’s nothing to do with colour but culture. We lived happily together in Alum rock with the west Indian community until the islamic invasion happened; then we were all kicked out.

  26. Your all generalising sooo much it’s making me quite angry! Not all muslims wear “Delek Garbs” and want to tear shreds out of each other. Also it’s quite ignorant to think that muslims are parasites… some british people who were born here are muslims and people can convert too! This Abdul guy simply wants to make an area where the muslim community in Lichfield (however small) can go to pray. At no point has he claimed that there would be a call to prayer, so it would simply be a building. Now I’m not a muslim- i’m an athiest, but I just don’t see why there is so much hatred! I can not understand why some of you think that some people’s beliefs are more important then others…

  27. Sash, there is generalisation I agree but a lot of these comments, including mine, are based on experience. Make your own minds up, look at the facts, share with others what you discover. Salam went for the big one, he knows what he’s doing. He’s been courting the press ever since with his claims of fears for his safety. He wanted his mosque next to cathedral alongside Westminster pool, with minarets and a call to prayer. Sheer provocation on his part.

  28. I agree that there should not be a call to prayer, but the planners would not allow it. What concerns me is the huge uproar created simply just for even suggesting having a mosque in Lichfield…

  29. I do not think that Lichfield is a suitable place for a mosque. In his demands for a mosque Salam stated that it was needed to enable muslim women to learn English and English culture. Surely in order to learn English muslim women should mix with the comunity and leave any other language behind. Muslim children should be brought up to speak English. The simple truth is that most muslims do not mix. Instead they will attempt to impose their own culture and ways on others. Also multiculturism does not work. I grew up in Handsworth when it was quite a pleasant place to live. We then had ‘multiculturism’ imposed on us so I moved. The pleasant suberb that I grew up in now resembles a cross between a Carribean market and a Bengali slum. Mass immigration has caused many problems, in Birmingham, as in other city’s there is the Asian community, the Afro Carribean community and what ever other community all all looking after their own interests and demanding their own ‘rights’.It is all just devisive. If anyone wishes to settle in England then they should attempt to intergrate into the community . If they do not then they should go elsewhere

  30. Sash: How many Islamic countries have you visited (a rhetorical question) Please read my post up the page (posted Apr 16 @ 7.02pm) regarding islamic countries, I’ve done my research, you obviously have not. If you had ever witnessed just how intollerant and brutal islam can be to infidels you might not be so welcoming to the march of Islam in this country, ignorance really is bliss.

  31. This weeks Mercury , page 5. A statement from the Cathedrals director of communications. What utter feable political correct dishwater. No wonder the CofE is in free fall and the islamists can’t stand us. weakness and more weakness.

  32. Paul White …….thats a great post !! All you have said is true . I grew up in Hodge Hill , at the time a lovely leafy suburb and went to school at Bromford Junior and Infants . All through the 80’s it was a good area to live in , smart and respectable. Over time , the muslims who had turned Washwood Heath into a muslim enclave started to move in , they would send their daughters to Hodge Hill girls school because they didn’t want them mixing with boys from the local school ( or indeed any school ). I remember my mom saying that she had been speaking to a Hindu woman who she used to talk to while out shopping, who had lived in the area for years , as to why she was leaving ……….and she said it was because of the muslims moving into the area. So if you think this is a white problem or a christian problem you’d be wrong !!

  33. Sash you are so missing the point, how can a huge Mosque be justified for such a small ethnic community. A small shed would be more appropriate.
    Once in place they will travel from other areas to visit, the next thing the size of the Muslim community will increase and the quality of life in Litchfield will reduce proportionately.
    These places are well known recruiting grounds for fanatics and extremists.
    This is the thin end of the wedge, there is a small Muslim community where I work and guess what the company has had to spend £100k providing Brothers and Sisters ablutions so that they can wash before going in to prey in their purpose built facility. Still it is better having them wash their feet in sinks next to me. Arggh.

  34. Well, I have resigned myself to the fact that I am now an “English Aborigine”. We live in a democracy but being English I don’t have freedon of speech. On the other hand anyone coming into this country can do or say what they want and as soon as anyone objects they play the racism card. So whatever I think about this Mosque has no relevance. If the muslims want it, it will happen. England is well on the way to islamification and when it happens later this century you can forget democracy or minority rights forever! They don’t exist in the muslim mind.

  35. NO WAY do we need a Mosque in Lichfield, we don’t want any reasons to encourage people who don’t want to learn our language, our supermarkets are now selling Polish news papers as they have no intention to learn out way off life, most of the musilims cannot be bothered to learn English and costs us a fortune in translators, not just musilims any foreigners who cannot speak English should be deported back to their native country and not be allowed back in to England till they can speak English and contribute to our sociatey.
    Am I racist ?, about certain foreigners YES

  36. Let us follow the sound and sensible advice of the Archbishop of York and show how proud we are of our heritage on St. Georges day. Let us all fly the English flag and hope that one will be fluttering proudly from the spire of Lichfield Cathedral! If it’s right for Scotland, Wales and Ireland to celebrate their national saints, then the same must apply to St. George of England.

  37. I wanted to put up a flagpole in time for Apr 23rd, however the council say I have to apply for planning consent if said pole exeeds 4 meters (the pole I wanted to errect was 7.5 meters) However, I’m sure 50 meter minarets on a mosque would be acceptable…

  38. this is what i dont understand

    Eastern Eye owner Abdul Salam told the Birmingham Post he was “frightened” by remarks made on social networking site Facebook.

    why are you frightened, i dont think there where any dirrect things to you…….?????

  39. there are some very interesting remarks on here,and most of them come from the people who have been affected in some way by the islamification of areas, myself included. a mosque is the tip of the iceberg after
    that will come the asian community centre and before you know it the asian benefits advisory centre (have a ride down handsworth high street). why have we not anyone in this country with the balls to say NO to these peoples demands, as for democracy, what a joke, the dudley mosque 22000 nays 7000 yeahs who do you think won!!!?. there could be a solution though, how about mr salam allowing his restaurant to become the mosque then we would be able to see whether it would be for prophet or profit. dont do it lichfield, you WILL regret it.

  40. There is no doubt for me, this would be the downfall for Lichfield. The amount spilt blood over the centuries fighting for our land and way of life was all for nothing. We are slowly being taken over!

  41. As a british born muslim, I understand the CREDIBLE concerns opposing the building of a mosque in Lichfield. If Lichfield is known as a Cathedral City then its important to retain its status. English heritage is important and there is absolutely nothing wrong in wanting to keep it that way. Its a magnificent building. I understand there are approximately 300-500 muslims residing in Lichfield. A mosque does not have to be built near the cathedral. A building could easily be converted. We can discuss this issue all day long. Fact is….no formal planning application has been submitted. Churches are built in many islamic countries, I have never been to Pakistan or any other islamic country but unlike some on here, i’ve had the sense to research before I post a comment. Perhaps you should do the same. There are many in the muslim community that don’t actively mix with many other communities. The same goes for white english people. It happens on every side. The main point is….how does this affect you? It doesn’t. You just want to have a moan. Concentrate on those who DO integrate with every community and you will find we’re just normal people who respect and admire this country. The freedoms that are enjoyed in this country may not be enjoyed in other countries….you should be proud your country is leading the way forward.

  42. Anzil, I have done my research, I’ve worked in three Islamic countries the longest spell being in Saudi which is without a shadow of doubt the worst country I have ever been to in my life. The reason Saudi is such a horrible place is “Islam”, women are treated worse than goats, foreign workers are routinely beaten in the street by the “Religious Police” for not strictly observing islamic customs or traditions and people have to watch public beheadings, although being a westerner I was thankfully exempt this little Islamic treat. Islam is medievil and if thats how muslims wish to live so be it, but I don’t want It in the UK, I don’t want Islam in my country. Had I said this in Saudi I would have been lucky to get away with a beating, can you imagine a muslim in England being beaten in the street by a Policeman? there would be demonstrations all over the world yet it happens in Islamic countries every day. I may have been of a different opinion had I not travelled and seen the brutality of Islam, but I have. I loathe Islam and it has no place in this country.

  43. It has been said there are 300 to 500 in Lichfield.
    Can someone anyone show me a cite of these type of numbers? I think it is more like max 90!
    If it is the higher num – where do they live?Not the exact add but that is 100 houses!! I see in a recent “family” picture they managed to muster 10 men from Lichfield outside a “M”.Could the camera man not wait till the women had finished prayer?

  44. Andrew…..Do you see that version of Islam being practiced here? No. Interpretation by muslims all over the world is quite different. If people believe, for example the Quran simply states kill all infidels. Then I would like to see facts of where this has happened by the majority of muslims. The majority of muslims in the UK are moderate. You said that if muslims want the saudi version of Islam in the UK you do not want it here…..please give me an example of when the majority of muslims have wanted to live like the Saudis. Also, how do you know their interpretation of Islam is more accurate than Muslims here?

  45. Anzil, I’m not interested in any version of Islam. I’ve had a belly full of Islam and seen enough of it to last me a lifetime and I don’t want it in the UK. When in Islamic countries I had to be carefull what I did and said as causing offence could have had dire consequences, however once back in the UK i find that I still have to bend over backwards to avoid offending people who get offended far to easily. I sincerely hope that next year the inevitable change of government brings a change in political attitude and the relentless march of islam is halted.

  46. Andrew I’m not surprised you offend people easily – you seem to be very forward with your backwards views.
    Perhaps biting your tongue now and then would improve your track record with offending people? You’re certainly not making many friends over on this site.

  47. Andrew…..you cannot blame the muslim community in the UK for policies, regulations, laws made by those in this country….they are not muslim. Im not concerned about any other country…..im concerned about the UK…..and on that basis please state facts….you’re making generalisations and assumptions without being specific. Thats my point.

    I have been posting comments on the group ‘Against the Lichfield Mosque’ and they now have over 6,000 members….and some feel threatened and intimidated by me…1 person!!! Most base their opinions on no facts whatsever….sheer hatred and bigotry.

    There are 2 million muslims in the UK out of 61 million…..a relentless march of Islam….Andrew….where? I just don’t see it. The practice of Islam practiced in Saudi as you are fully aware is no way practiced here…..yet I don’t feel you are looking at this objectively.

  48. Anzil, The last published official estimate of the size of the Muslim community in Britain was 1.6 million, based on the findings of the 2001 census. The updated government estimate is now 2 million but it must be said, if the governments previous figures on immigration/migration are anything to go by it would not be unreasonable to assume the official estimate of 2 million to be significantly lower than the actual number. It is accepted on Ummah, an islamic discussion forum that the figure is probably about 3 million. Islam is the second largest and fastest growing community in the UK. In London, Birmingham, Bradford and Manchester this stinking government has quietly sanctioned sharia courts and councils to rule on cases ranging from divorce and financial disputes to those involving domestic violence. It seems the rule of (UK) law does not apply to islam. Thanks to this politically correct government the UK is also top heavy with Islamic organisations like the Muslim Council of Britain, the British Muslim Forum, Tablighi Jamaat, the Sufi Muslim Council,the Islamic Human Rights Commission, the Conservative Muslim Forum, the Mosques & Imams National Advisory Board, the Muslim Association of Britain, the Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK, the Islamic Society of Britain, the Muslim Parliament of Great Britain, the Muslim Educational Trust and Progressive British Muslims. Muslims may be only 3.5% (at the moment) of the population but they are a very vociferous minority are they not? The UK muslim population multiplied 10 times faster than the rest of society (research by the Office for National Statistics) In the same period the number of Christians in the country fell by more than 2 million. If this madness is not stopped Lichfield will be like any one of several other “plural” towns & cities in the UK where the indiginous population are in the minority. Enough is enough. If muslims want mosques they should go and live in Islamabad or Dhahran. And Anzil, the more vociferous and demanding muslims get the more you will find people like me.

  49. The issue of the Lichfield Mosque is a touchstone of a wider mailaise of British culture. The loss of Christian tradition and way of life and the relentless increase of immigration that is morphing Britain into a country unrecogiseable to our ancestors.

    Only 2 million Muslims in the UK! . That is a gross underestimate and does not give shape to the bigger issue here. That there is and has been a quite deliberate agreement amongst Muslims that their time will come . They know that it is all a matter of demographics and that in time they will numerically have their say . The enclaves that some comments has mentioned is one sad and dangerous symptom of what is occurring in hundreds of towns and cities in the UK and Europe.

    The Islamification of Britain is well underway .We should all be very worried and work to challenge this imminent disaster

  50. The facebook group is farce. It clearly has strong BNP connections.. The creator does not deny he is a BNP supporter.
    The debates on the groups message boards clearly demonstrate the lack of intellect and innacurate/fabricated facts used by the opponents to justify their opposition of the mosque.
    The debates have fallen into a comical farce with the Mosques opposers appearing both dim witted and prejudiced against both muslims, immigrants and other minority groups.
    Reasoned debates are being made by some sound minded people, including fantastic slices of satire.
    I’m quite sure most of the 6500 members of the group do not share the same view of mostly BNP supporters taking part in the online discussions.
    The facebook group should be given the attention it deserves…


  51. At the end of the day the offended left white middle class of Lichfield are perfectly entitled to believe that the Pakistani Muslim community are culturally just the same as they are, but suffer simple racism just because of the colour of their skin. As a result the standard response is to ignore the deep seated problems and to try to shut down any legitimate debate as to the merits of certain cultures and religions, by labelling any criticism as racist.

    I have witnessed the affects[sic] first hand of this community at work in Walsall and how they have transformed previously respectable neat and tidy neighbourhoods into something approaching a third world slum, with everybody white driven out with the exception of the elderly who are to frail to move .

    How would you like it if people were to come knocking on your door when the house is not for sale asking when you are going to move “because this is a Muslim area now”?

    How would you like it if rotten stinking rubbish is just disposed of at the bottom of your neighbours now overgrown garden, or alternatively everything is just burnt, such as UPVC windows (they go up with some filthy putrid black smoke by the way)?

    How would you like it if buildings are built without planning permission at the bottom of a garden, then retrospectively planning permission is applied for saying it is for storage yet people are living in the building?

    How would you like it to have cars driven past with people shouting racist abuse out of the windows at you?

    How would you like it if your neighbours covered their faces so you have no idea who they are?

    How would you like it if every house is bought by the same family group so it is no longer a normal neighbourhood?

    How would you like it if the election results swing wildly from one party to another in some wards, as the block vote goes to who ever has the ascendancy in the community and the turn outs are abnormally high compared to elsewhere?

    I suspect nobody in Lichfield will have experienced anything like this? At the end of the day I could go on and on, but my point is please make you own judgements based on what you see with you own eyes, as opposed to what you read in your newspapers or the naive propaganda published by the local authorities.

  52. Gastank…….LMAO!!!!!!!!! What a whole load of rubbish!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Where has this happened?!!!

    Stoke on trent is the second largest BNP stronghold yet the biggest dump in the UK….and thats not my opinion….its official. As for white areas arounds walsall……fantastic are they………South Bham……yardley wood, warstock, billesley, chelmesley wood, selly oak, quinton, dudley to name but a few…….all white……and exactly how you describe muslim areas…..nothing to do with race……they are all working class areas!!!!!!!!!!

  53. Gastank, as someone who lived in a predominantly muslim area in Walsall (Chuckery) for some time I feel I’m qualified to comment on this. Yeah, I had some hostility, but there were also some lovely people (white and asian) is my neighbourhood. The problem you’ve got is scum, race doesn’t come into it. I’m sure the same problems in reverse happen in predominantly white areas.

  54. Let’s not forget The Dimbles – are there any asians there? Nope. Is it a nice area to live? Nope.

  55. Chuckery would that be the same Chuckery where anti Christian graffiti was put on the side of St Luke’s Church, where threatening letters were put through the church letter box, where the Vicar was physically threatened and the Strawberry Tea on the Green was disrupted because it was being held on a Muslim only play area.

    I like the way the word “Asian” is carefully used to lump people together as one group instead of acknowledging any differences between different groups. I never suggested that Sikh and Hindu people are in anyway a problem and want anything other than to quietly get on with their lives. How often do Indian people spout off to the media in all directions about how hard done by they are, when they do not get everything they want?

    Of course the fact that many Indian people choose to live in Park Hall, as opposed to amongst the “Asian community” might be viewed as quite telling. In fact most people of Indian origin who I know and have worked with have quite interesting views about Islam (but then it is a bit hard to claim people of the same race can be racist towards one another).

    To Anzil you are very very good most of the time, but every now and then the facade slip does it not, like with the we are here now and you cannot stop us comments on facebook. Come on why don’t you tell us how we are lazy, drink excessively, are only interested in football and Eastenders, how our women dress like tarts. It is quite clear from your comments that you view the white working class with utter contempt, perhaps they need to find a superior way!

    It is also interesting to note how people on here are prepared to condemn the white working classes as feckless and lazy with such ease, but when it comes culture and religion it is a total different ball game. Then you wonder why.

  56. “Let’s not forget The Dimbles – are there any Asians there? Nope. Is it a nice area to live?”

    Do you really think the Dimbles are that bad? I think you need to get a out and visit some really bad areas if that is what you think is bad.

    However you admit that you do not want to live where it is not nice, therefore following your line of argument presumably if a Muslim area does meet your suitability requirements (not nice enough, however you judge nice) it is legitimate to criticise it. Unless of course you believe that no bad Muslim areas exist, only white ones?

    Seems to be that only poor white areas and people that can legitimately be criticised.

  57. Gastank……WIth regards to your post dated April 28th at 12:08.

    Firstly, I said ‘we are here to stay so what are you going to do about it’…..Thats a a little different from ‘we are here now AND YOU CANNOT STOP US’…. Do you think it implies that I believe that muslims are here to take over and rule. I was born in this country.

    You also fail to mention who i said it to and in what context. Do you think by saying ‘get out of this country’ I’m going to do it? Do you think that I am going to allow anyone to call me a paki and say thanks? If people look at the 100’s of comments left on facebook by myself……you’ll see that your post above on the way I feel is incorrect…..Gastank….please gather ALL your facts before you pass judgment….thats the problem with most .

    Secondly, As for my facade,…..we are here to discuss the issue of the mosque….not to sit back and be insulted…..If people want to shout abuse and make threats…..do it face to face……I have no time for idiots acting tough over the internet!!

    Thirdly, i have been into pubs, bars, clubs many times….I am the only 1 of about 20 that doesn’t drink.alcohol…yet I still go out with drinkers. I have more friends that are NOT muslim. I play football, I watch more soaps than most!! ‘Your’ women…..please elaborate. You are in fact making assumptions. You seem to have a problem with the way women dress in burkhas…..I don’t have a problem with the way anyone dresses.

    As for my comment on working class…..You imply that asians bring down the look of an area…..I made a point that it has nothing to do with asians and if you believe so….explain the demise of areas like I mentioned above which are predominantly white…I come from a working class background……

    Gastank…I am in no way against anyone for being white, black, pink…whatever….I have nothing against anyone for their beliefs….apart from the policies/actions of the BNP and the stupidity of political correctness that ethnic minorities get the blame for. I think you should be a little more realistic in whats around you. I have made points for and against the mosque……its there for everyone to see.

  58. Sorry Gastank….with regards to my second point….I wasn’t referring to you…..it was the idiots on facebook.

  59. Anzil

    You get me wrong I do not support the views of those who trade in stupid insults without argument.

    What concerns me in particular are the views held by certain parts of the Muslim community and the denial by certain parts of the white community that those views exist and their view that it would all be alright if they lived in a majority Muslim area but they don’t because they want to live somewhere nice i.e. not a Muslim area (closet racists).

    Examples of these concerns would be:

    The 25% of the Muslim community who according to surveys by the Guardian believe that 9/11 and 7/7 never happened.
    The 98% who believe that homosexuality is abhorrent.
    The 48% who would either be proud for their family to be a suicide bomber, or at least alternatively think that those actions are justified against this country because of our foreign policy.

    These are issues that exist and have been raised by the like of Baroness Warsi and as a result the government is spending money to combat the extremist views.

    I do not know you, so I am not in a position to judge as to how westernised your lifestyle is and how integrated you are. What I can say from my personal experiences is that in large parts of certain towns and cities people are living parallel lives with no interest in living any way other than that of the culture from which they hailed or were brought up in. Walking around Birmingham City centre how many people of different races mixing together. Friday night on Broad Street?

    You suggest the problems are because people are poor, but if people marry a spouse from Pakistan who cannot speak good/any English and are culturally so different what chance have you got of been successful here and finding good employment. This attitude just imports more poverty into the Muslim community who then become more disenfranchised and the vicious circle starts. The very fact that you think it is normal to never see your neighbours face does tend to indicate a problem, what if everyone covered their face how would society function?

    Also I do not understand how being poor can be a justification for living in a messy way whether you are white or not.

    Maybe you do not think these attitudes and problems exist?

  60. Gastank

    The Guardian claims those percentages of the muslim community…..based on how many…..20, 200, 2 million…..see where im going?

    Look up Agha Khan and Ismaili muslims in the UK…..you’ll see a very different side to muslims in the way they strive to succeed not only in the UK but anywhere in the world. Its just an example I want you to see.

    I certainly take your point about anyone coming into the country and struggling to succeed perhaps with difficulties with language or a lack of skills……my own personal experience is the NHS….Obviously here is someone with a skill set and pays tax but……I remember asking a foreign nurse about….i think it was something to do with a ward……she replied telling me what time the chemist opened…..lol I couldn’t believe it. Poor language skills in health professionals could cost someone their life!! I fully agree that the UK should not allow people in the country with nothing to offer. Its a drain on taxpayers money

    However, morally…… can we deny people the right to a better life…..don’t get me wrong….I fully accept what you’ve said but sadly its not that simple.

    There are many muslims that are successful and contribute to society and to our tax system so its not all doom and gloom. The problem is with companies taking their businesses abroad, as you are aware…call centres are an example……greed and lining fat cats bulging pockets are also a problem. Recent controversy surrounding MP’s expenses, I remember reading in the papers years ago that when Labour came into power, their victory party cost over £20,000 of taxpayers money….im just suprised that MP’s have been allowed to drain our funds so freely. Its criminal!!

    My comments on working class isn’t suggesting poorer people are dirty and messy in anyway….some bloody are regardless of who they are and there are plenty more that aren’t. Thats regardless of what class they belong to. I think there are more factors to take into consideration concerning the look of an area.

    On the point concerning burkhas for example…..not long ago, there was a teacher who was suspended for wearing it from head to toe and children could not understand her….it eventually went to court……I thought it actually wasn’t entirely practical in a teaching environment however, its all about education so isn’t that the best place to tackle these issues. I know this came to light because of children not being able to understand her( even though her mouth isn’t covered) rather than outraged parents out to attack her.

    The BNP now wear suits trying to look credible but still come out with the same crap, society hasn’t been fooled because they now wear suits……its their motives and intentions that people see. My point is… is it right to judge someone by the way they dress?…..because if you feel thats right…you wouldn’t have mentioned….’that our women dressed like tarts’. You wanted me to answer that.

    Finally, more definately needs to be done by muslims, other communities and government to better ways of integrating and coming together.Although I have just recently got involved with my local residents assocation, I for one, am now trying to get involved in my local muslim association to work with them on improving ties with other communties to show not all of us believe in violence and terrorism.

  61. Anzil, I was born and brought up in Handsworth. I remember it being a pleasant place to live. Villa Road, Soho Road and Lozells Road used to be very nice places to shop. Then we had mass immigration. Look at it now.

  62. Anzil, If we are to have large numbers of immigrant s in Britain then the immigrants should be encouraged to mix widely with the indigenous population, and not to ghettoize themselves. We should not have Muslim areas, Asian , Afro and the rest communities. Anyone who comes to live in Britain should reguard themselves as British first. I have a son living in Australia; come the next Ashes tests my son will be shouting for Australia. And so he should.

  63. Anthony, explain to me how muslims are at fault for the fact that areas are predominantly muslim? Who do they buy those houses from before it became predominantly asian…..your ‘indigenous population’. When people move and mix like in Lichfield and want a place of worship look at the uproar…..I agree Lichfield doesn’t need a purpose built mosque right now but if there were 1000 muslims in Lichfield the outrage would still be the same as it is currently!! There are many white areas that do not want diversity and make it clear they do not want blacks and asians.

    Why should your son support Australia because he lives there? Do all Man U fans live in Manchester? Do Chelsea fans all live in Chelsea? See where im coming from?

  64. Anzil,
    Can you tell me one area where it is better now than before a monstrosity was built?I know it is not Brum/Wolv/Walsall or Burton.

  65. Guys we think that you should all stop arguing about ghettoisation and where you want to live and get back to the point of calmly disscusing what is after all only a proposal buy a very nice man……….. PEACE AND LOVE AND HUGS XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

  66. Recently, it seems that the sole attraction of Lichfield is the Cathedral. Perhaps it would gain more attention and a wider range of tourists if we were to build some representation of the fact that Lichfield is now a multi-cultural place. To those who are concerned that the aesthetic and British element of Lichfield shall be lost if a mosque should be built, I feel that you need to do your research. The Muslims have not asked for an elaborate building, they have simply required a place in which they can worship when they must do their daily prayers. I think that many of the arguments on here are outrageous. I am disinclined to agree with any, as the reasoning behind them all is irrelevant to the proposal for a mosque. After all, no official plan for a mosque exists, so the extreme and offensive comments that were recorded are slightly overdrawn.

  67. Aidan&Anna,

    You sound like the voice of reason but just when it looks like the dust will settle your “nice man” drums up a hornets nest in another paper this time the figure of 1000 people who pray up to 5 times a day (what an intolerant deity that demands you phone him 5 times a day!)
    I would not let my wife phone me once a day -too busy working.
    The mind boggles at the thought of all those cars/buses/people movers going along the A38 five times a day!That’s 20 full coaches or 300 cars times five!
    I can go to any town/city where there is a large population of these people and by sight/smell and sound can tell where they live.What area of Lichfield do these 1000 live in?
    I know a VIP mentioned Beirut in the same sentence as one area but I doubt if 40 live there let alone 1000!

    Now lets see if we can get back to reality.Recent reports have mentioned a fig of Max 90 of these people in Lichfield and two articles have mentioned 500 and the latest 1000.
    Whenever a bussiness looks at providing a facility they ascertain how many people in that town will use it.
    Do any of you have any official figs which indicate the true approx fig of how many live in Lichfield?

    MR anonymous Try to at least read the posts –

    You will note your “nice man” has mentioned – Quote”
    Mr Salam, who has lived in Lichfield for 25 years, said last week the city’s burgeoning Islamic community desperately needs a permanent mosque with a minaret to issue the call to prayer. END Quote”
    Then later he states “we just need a room”.
    I realize after only 25 yrs he may not understand English but there is a big difference between QUOTE -Praying at a purpose-built mosque means a journey to Birmingham or Burton.We are looking to have one built like that in Lichfield,” -END QUOTE and Quote “We only need a room”!

    I read he also mentions Quote -”
    “We can provide food and entertainment that will keep them busy instead of wanting to steal people’s cars.”We need a mosque to give the young people focus, it is important these children should be kept on the right side of the law.” End Quote.
    He seems to be concerned with his lot and the law – Why not look at the site of the proposed prison ?

  68. Quite frankly the idea of a `traditional`mosque in a town like Lichfield is ridiculous, the planning appro would never be passed, gold domes, lime green minarets perhaps…………not really in keeping with the existing architecture or landscape, but LAs have to be seen to play the game!

    People should realise that islam is not a `religion` it is a `faith` it is basically a control mechanism or life code based on fear & reward, very suitable in countries where there are large numbers of people living in poverty who need `something` to believe in because it gives a degree of control. In the uk we are a bit more `civilised` and controlling faiths are not really appropriate.

    The problem is that every muslim is expected to do their bit to promote their faith & most muslims would agree to the ideal of an `islamic world`….what we are seeing in the uk & all over the world is part of this objective & those non muslim people who support the spread of this controling faith should perhaps read and learn a bit more about islam and what it really could mean to this country.

  69. To anonymous (from MAY 16)
    Lichfield is NOT a “multicultural place” as you call it. The word multicultural is a complete myth, different cultures have never and will never live together. In this country as in every country throughout the world immigrant populations stick together. There are several so called “plural” towns in the UK where the indiginous population are no longer the majority but the immigrants are not dispersed throughout the town in some richly diverse multicultural shangri la, many towns have distinct Asian and Black areas where whites are not welcome. Words like “multicultural” and “ethnicly diverse” are a complete sham and a smokescreen used by left wing PC appeasers and naysayers.

  70. It is sadly inevitable that Lichfield will have a mosque, our politically correct authorities (both local and central) are frightened to death of being called racist. Is it any wonder the BNP are laughing all the way to the hustings.

  71. I came to live in Lichfield because I wanted to live in a ‘nice’ area – somewhere where people will acknowledge you in the street as you pass by and greet you with a freindly smile or a ‘hello.’ I used to live in what some might call a ‘poor white trash’ area of Birmingham, historically working class white but changing — it is becoming islamified as the old folk die and more muslim families move in. I witnessed a great deal of racial tension on the streets and got sick of the anti social behaviour on both sides of the community. Sadly, whilst in theory I support the concept of us all living together in harmony, I have first hand experience that it just doesn’t really work in practice. It’s like trying to mix oil and water as the Islamic community in this particular neighbourhood (& in lots of others in Birmingham) is predominantly one which is not at all westernised and makes no attempt whatsoever to integrate. I will be very sad if Lichfield follows the same path as Birmingham over the coming years, and will probably be forced to emigrate somewhere abroad which is ‘nice’ in the end. Having a mosque in Lichfield will obviously pave the way for my inevitable departure.

  72. its goodby from him and its goodbye from me.

    There is nothing that makes by blood boil more than someone moaning that immigration here is so bad that they emmigrate (apart from when they come back to visit our NHS).

    Swing that suitcase once more Sally

  73. It’s a shame that unconcerned citizen has totally miss read me and I doubt that he/she has ever lived in area like the one I described themselves. I am just an ordinary citizen, not a member of the BNP or a racist. What I said was that I left the area because I was very misserable with the anti social activities etc coming from both sides of the community. The communities did not mix well at all, fact. So if I do end of leaving in the future to find somewhere I am comfortable and happy to live in, it will be ‘goodbye’ to a succesfull MBA qualified entrepreneur and all the positives for society that that has/can bring. Oh, and by the way, I have private medical insurance so do not rely on the NHS.

  74. Sorry, but no one has pointed out HOW a mosque will ‘pave the way for inevitable decline’ – Yes there are a lot of mosques in run down areas, but there are a lot of mosques in less run down areas. Obviously, due to immigrants generally being lower down the social scale there will be more mosques in poorer areas, but one mosque does not a decline make.

  75. No one seems to have pointed out that there is in fact no mosque. No one has pointed out that Abdul Salam has a history of attention seeking stunts and that this appears to be nothing more than another more ill judged example of his habit.

    Any discussion of the impact of a mosque is impossible without reverting to stereotypes for the simple reason this 1000 strong religiously active Muslim community does not exist which paves the way for anyone to ascribe to them behavioural patterns and values be they positive or negative.

    This is crass ignorance, and we apply that label to those who are both anti and pro the mosque. Both groups are arguing as though Muslims are some kind of homogenous group of people who we can judge positively or negatively simply based on the fact they are Muslim.

    We take the view that Abdul Salam is an irresponsible individual who has caused trouble for the sake of some attention. The fact he is Muslim and has used the currently controversial nature of Islam in the media is purely coincidental. He could just as easily have been the owner of a carpet factory in Huddesfield claiming he was going to build a carpet showroom next to the cathedral.

  76. Well Sally – perhaps i missed your point as you can’t really be specific with sweeping generalisations.
    So what if you have an MBA? plenty of immigrants have them.
    I also don’t see why my NHS money should pay to train doctors and nurses only for them to be poached by higher paying private health companies for the wealthier.
    Entrepreneur? Profiteer more like.
    Shoot them i say.

  77. Sally non of them have lived in these areas. They don’t have any friends from these area. They would not sent their children to school there but they think it is great. The can’t , don’t, or won’t see because acknowledging anything else leaves the doctrine broken and smashed. Anyway we live in Lichfield so it does not matter.

    “Both groups are arguing as though Muslims are some kind of homogenous group”

    Trouble is Islam is very specific about what it right or wrong in terms of behaviour. Result is anything outside this view is regarded as heresy, which might explain why humour is in such short supply in Muslim countries, as humour tends to be based on some form of heresy (ask Darcus Howe).

    Example of a homogenous group would be the massive swings in votes from one particular party to another in certain wards depending on which religion the candidate hails from. I remember the consternation of the Labour party members in Walsall when the Conservatives put a Muslim candidate up and he delivered a massive swing in a ward Labour had never lost before, because he delivered the block vote. “After all we have done for them” (which implies Labour regarded Muslims as their group). It tends to suggest that a lack of individual thinking exists.

    Of course you might argue acting as a group has some stronger virtues than as an individual in terms of collective power. The word community this and community that is often bandied by members of the Muslim community.

  78. Which areas are these gastank? We can’t possibly comment without knowing. You see, areas like ethnic and cultural groups aren’t homogeneous either, one area with social problems isn’t the same as another area with social problems. Even if those problems are identical it doesn’t necessarily hold that the causes are the same. Broad stroke generalisations only serve to reinforce stereotypes and they are pretty well useless when applied to specific issues. What doctrine exactly do you think is left broken and smashed? Political Multiculturalism or something else?

    Which election and which ward in Walsall are you talking about, we’d be interested to have a look. Even more interesting is your willingness to accept the explanation of a defeated political party for their own failure when it appears to back up your argument.

    That said the communal vote has been an issue across the country for a while but it always happens hand in hand with specific local issues, we would never argue that acting as a community is positive when that community is defined by race or ethnicity, it is never anything other than divisive.

    We also know nothing about comedy in Muslim countries anymore than we do about comedy in France so again, we can’t comment.

  79. May 2008

    Joan Barton (Lab) 958 55%
    Paul Booker (Green) 142 8%
    Alan Davies (Dem Lab) 110 6%
    Chad Pitt (Con) 543 31%

    Nov 2008 Kamran Aftab stands for Conservatives and wins for the first time ever.

    Conservatives 764 46%
    Labour 661 38%
    BNP 90 5%
    Lib Dem 72 4%
    DLP 69 4%
    UKIP 52 3%
    Greens 32 2%

    I doubt that the DLP voters deserted in block to the Conservatives. Same type of thing happens in inner city Brum wards with unusual swings between Labour LD and Respect. Just seems odd how a poor ward would return a Conservative, same thing with Pleck and Palfrey at different times.

    Not really – the labour comment was an amusing aside because it just seemed to demonstrate to me at least how they take certain groups, whether they be white or not for granted. I would have used it if a Conservative had been unseated by this means but I doubt they would have expected to win the votes by right. In fact previously when a white Labour Councillor has lost out like this Labour have quickly responded by running a candidate that can deliver the block vote back. However they are desperate to get Richard Worrall back on the Labour Group so he seems to get a crack at the bye elections.

    Anyway was it not said that a white person was not suitable for Clare Shorts seat when she stands down from Parliament because of not understanding the communities? Imagine saying that in reverse. Does that suggest a non white person cannot understand the remaining white people in this seat. I wonder if Clare Short will retire to the Derbyshire Dales like Roy Hattersley or like Betty Boothroyd to Cambridgeshire. Tessa Jowell had a house in Shipston-on-Stour.

    Yeah Political Multiculturalism Labour used to be for all working people regardless, now it only seems interested in creating and segmenting minority groups for political end. I shall try and find an article I read on the Guardian website about how Labour has cultivated individual groups to promote victimhood in order to cultivate a client base.

    Do people not expect the white community not to start playing the identity card when everybody is encouraged to play their own identity card.

  80. Tell the whole story gastank, all of it, not just the bit about the Conservative being a Muslim. Tell us about the incumbent Labour councilor resigning after being accused of a sexual offence. Build the argument that this will have had nothing to do with the failure of Labour to get their vote out and it was all because they were up against a Muslim. As we said before you told us of the ward in question – Communal voting exists but is never a deciding factor in isolation and in this case other than pointing out the Conservative is a Muslim you’ve built no case at all for communal block voting having taken place. Nice try though, a good example of information cherry picking. Ever considered a career in politics?

    We can’t quite fathom you out when it comes to political multiculturalism. On the one hand you seem to speak as though you’re against it and on the other hand you speak the language, you’re arguing that we can see Muslims as homogeneous – The central pillar of political multiculturalism.

  81. “Do people not expect the white community not to start playing the identity card when everybody is encouraged to play their own identity card. ”

    Only the white people who buy into political multiculturalism to such an extent they see themselves as part of a homogeneous group and fail to recognise the differences that do separate people, differences based on need, material and social, differences that actually affect their day to say live unlike superficial divides such as race religion and ethnicity. The kind of people who think that a working class Muslim person has more in common with a Muslim Tory business man than they do with a working class white person culturally or otherwise. Some of them jump onto the political multiculturalism bandwagon and join the BNP after their slice of the identity pie.

    What about you gastank, what’s your answer?

  82. Just to remind us, here are some definitions of ‘culture’ :Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.
    Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
    Culture is communication, communication is culture.
    Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person’s learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
    A culture is a way of life of a group of people–the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
    Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group’s skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions.
    Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievement of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, on the other hand, as conditioning influences upon further action.
    Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.
    Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.

    My question is, to those people who have an actual real life experience of living in a ‘multi-cultural’ environment where there is at least an equal measure of muslim people who are clearly not westernised displayed by : preferred language used not English, tangible symbols such as clothing worn not western dress, beleif system used intollerant and based on punishments for non conformity to preferred beleif system …..is there anyone out there who has experience of this Islamic ‘culture’ mixing well with a secular, westernised one?

  83. Well Sally… i met one of those character you have defined… he was a nice guy apart from his ‘intolerance’.

    If you particularly specify someone who is intolerant… its a really dumb question isn’t it?

    Is Gastank going to answer classcrisis question?

  84. “We can’t quite fathom you out when it comes to political multiculturalism. On the one hand you seem to speak as though you’re against it and on the other hand you speak the language, you’re arguing that we can see Muslims as homogeneous – The central pillar of political .”

    Not at all the one just causes what is already underlying to flourish. I don’t think one needs the other to spark it. For instance France only recognises France and has no concept of multiculturalism but the Muslim communities respond in much the same way as here. I accept that different race and religions are going to be different to some extent otherwise the only alternative would be them not existing here or being reprogrammed in some way which is ludicrous. I just don’t think we should promote these differences to such an extent.

    What I have a problem with is cultures operating so left of field that the people living in that culture start to become unable to function successfully within the host culture because they are mentally thousands of miles away. For instance tell me how somebody with only their eyes showing can function properly in a social or work environment. This does not have to come from political multiculturalism but instead the way to behave and act seems to be derived from a theocracy, which is being preached in Mosques, as opposed to the individual deciding the values and behaviours to adopt. It is from this that the underlying homogenous behaviour derives in my view. Political multiculturalism just says this is new exciting good to be encouraged makes me feel good. Which then allowed homogenous behaviour to thrive because the state was actively promoting it, at least until they realised the kind of developments it was creating.

    What do you think would have happened if Labour had run a Muslim would the Muslim electorate have recoiled because of the previous incumbents record? Or would it have stayed safe Labour. Nobody can say but what I can say is that the majority of people who voted changed sides. You made me laugh by the way with the picture of the poor Muslim people voting for the rich Muslim business man. If they have nothing in common why are they voting for him other than he is a Muslim? Seems a bit dim on their part when you put it like that. You would have thought the Lib Dems would be a better fit with thier opposition to the wars.

    Oh well at least someone who actively stands politically has their suspicions. “The majority of the votes came from the mostly Asian Birchills area, and the Conservative candidate was Asian, so you have to hand it to the local Tories for playing such a canny game”. Whatever than game may be?

    Fighting elections in large metropolitan areas is never an easy task for UKIP, but on Thursday 27th November, UKIP activist Elizabeth Hazell, known as Liz to her family and friends, gave it her best shot in the by-election which was held in the Birchills Leamore Ward in Walsall.

    In what can only be described as a crushing defeat by the Tory campaigning tank in the borough, Labour’s candidate, Richard Worrall, lost one of Walsall’s safest Labour wards to the Conservative candidate, Kamram Afteb.

    Ex Councillor Worrall whose endless array of letters constantly blight the letters pages of the local free press with his unwanted opinions on just about everything, seems to be making a habit of loosing elections.

    He lost his Council seat in the St Matthews ward, which used to be a Labour seat and is now Tory. He tried to regain it but failed, so he moved on to Brownhills, where he then lost another two elections, moved back to St Matthews and lost again – twice – and now this fiasco. He really is making a habit of losing once safe Labour wards, he should be renamed as the Jonah of the Labour Party in Walsall.

    Our UKIP team put in a valiant effort, every house received a UKIP election address from Liz, but elections are seldom fair or reflect all the hard work and effort put in by the campaigners. The Tories went out hard for this ward, and their work paid off, but it seems unfair that the BNP, which is not the most savoury of political parties, got 9o votes to Liz’s 52. They didn’t even seem to get their act together until the tail end of the campaign. I think people hold their noses and vote BNP on the basis they are the nastiest party they can find just to shock the three main parties – I can think of no other reason unless they are out and out racists.

    One interesting point which Liz commented on was that the predominately white area of the Beachdale Estate only saw just over 270 people voting, for a large estate that is truly dreadful. The majority of the votes came from the mostly Asian Birchills area, and the Conservative candidate was Asian, so you have to hand it to the local Tories for playing such a canny game. And to Liz, bad luck, there is always next time.

    The big question now for the Walsall UKIP campaigners is, shall we do this again when the next by-election comes along in Rushall Shelfield due to the sudden, and very sad death of the well liked Councillor, Cath Mikklewright?

  85. It’s hard to read that, to decipher what is written by you and what is a cut and paste from somewhere else.

    The jist of what you’re saying is that the Tories have played the identity card and that’s what won them the election. As we said in the previous comment it is not possible to pin their victory entirely on the communal block vote and we have never said that it does not exist, simply that it is never the only factor, I think we demonstrated that amply in this case and you have done nothing to persuade us otherwise. Quite the opposite in fact. That the election was virtually ignored by those that should be considered Labours core constituency illustrates our point that the real decider of the election was the failure of the Labour party to get their vote out. This is likely related to more than the sexual offence allegations though this doubtless had an affect.

    Tell us we’re about a working class Muslim having more in common with a working white (non Muslim) person than with a middle class Muslim. Crudely put, if a person has cash and no need of socially provided services for example health, education and housing how is it that by shared religious belief they can have more in common with someone who can’t afford to privately educate their children, buy a house or take out private medical insurance? The fact of whether they recognise this or not doesn’t affect the material truth of the matter. Or does it?

    As we said in our first comment on this, remembering that this story is about Lichfield, you can say whatever you want about any Muslim community anywhere except the thousand strong one in Lichfield because it doesn’t exist. This is a none issue fabricated by an attention seeker.

    For reasons best known to yourself you seem determined to widen to a debate about Islam in general.

  86. “For reasons best known to yourself you seem determined to widen to a debate about Islam in general.”

    Fair enough no large Muslim community exists in Lichfield therefore the only personal views/experiences that can be recounted are those relating to the nearest local Muslim community, presumably which would provide the basis for any future Muslim population growth in Lichfield. Unless of course any Muslims coming to Lichfield would be either different (the elusive moderate Muslim), or the caricature of them is untrue. As I and others have said we await the views of a person who has lived in local a Muslim area and has derived great pleasure from the experience.

    As you say the man is a fool because he could have quietly gone about getting planning permission and nobody other than those consulted locally on any planning application would have known. However he did suggest 1000 Muslims would descend which although untrue would be fairly character changing event. Unless of course this was an aspiration.

    At the end of the day everybody has their own views but it is certainly starting to become noticeable how many people are choosing to move out to Lichfield, so something must be causing it.

  87. He isn’t asperational he’s an attention seeker, he’s no more planning a mosque than we’re planning a temple to the spaghetti hoop monster.

    As for your comments about the nearest large Muslim community and it’s affects on the area you’re barking up completely the wrong tree.

    You would be better looking for an area with the same social and economic demographic as Lichfield into which a large Muslim community has moved and looking at the affect it has had. Comparing Lichfield – a place that has never had large scale industry and so not suffered the social affects of the collapse of industry – with Walsall or Birmingham for example will tell you precisely nothing.

  88. Im not noticing a mass migration from lichfield – if anything is causing it i suggest it may be the high cost of housing (4 year waiting list for social housing) a fair few large local employers have gone or are going and there isn’t a cinema.

    I’m a white male – i recall being beaten up by a bunch of (white) skinheads in walsall. Completely unprovoked – a random attack. Perhaps they couldn’t find an asian to pick on.
    I’ve worked in the walsall area, went college in wolverhampton and bilston, worked in wolverhampton and also once worked at a factory in fradley with a large proportion of muslim workers.
    I’ve never had a problem from a muslim. When i worked in wolverhampton a muslim would regularly share his spiced fruit with me and many others.

    And the particular muslims we are refering to in this debate – seem to be ‘our’ local chefs, waiters and taxi drivers – who play a massive part in our local economy – the town centre and its nightlife.
    and they are nice guys… including Abdul aside from his attention seeking sheenanigans.

    Of course i must be very fortunate not to have encountered ‘The wrong sort of muslim’.

  89. Gastank is saying people are moving into Lichfield. Out of Birmingham? He doesn’t say.

    We would suggest that this is due to the continuing and currently accelerating collapse of industry in the city, the rise in unemployment and the social problems that go hand in hand with this. He would have you believe it’s because of Muslims living there. Identity politics a go go

  90. Those pesky muslims caused the global collapse of capitalism? I’m starting to change my mind on this now that i’ve been put straight.
    Where’s the scooby doo gang when you need them.

  91. The way this affair has been jumped on by those with an agenda and the way they are unable to let it go even though it is demonstrably nonsense is comedy. Still, it takes all sorts.

  92. Muhammad is now second only to Jack as the most popular name for baby boys in Britain and is likely to rise to No 1 by next year according to a study by The Times [6 June 2009] The name (if all 14 different spellings are included) beat Thomas into third place, followed by Joshua and Oliver. But what I find really sinister is the fact that the ONS (office for national statistics) have tried to hide the numbers. Officially the ONS say Muhammad is not even in the top ten most popular names. This is typical of the way the spread of islam in this country is being hidden by a politically correct government who encourage local authorities to bend over backwards in order to avoid “offending” (the word of our epoch) and accomodate the wishes of minority groups against the wishes of the majority. With current PC anti English doctrine coming from Downing Street Lichfield will I’m sure sooner or later have a mosque, it is sadly inevitable.

  93. “Sadly inevitable” ?
    I’m hazaarding a guess you don’t like muslims.
    Did you know that there is a 50/50 chance of a very large meteor impacting earth in the next 50 years?
    Although it may just hit the sea, your odds off being killed by this impact are similar to your die ing in a plane crash.

    I also must point out that any current growth in any given group is no prediction of the future.

    Previous statistics of the common or garden (white) English man were of course indictactive of growth.
    However – iast time i looked, white couples were no longer having 2 point something children which means the white peoples are in decline. (each white person is not replacing themself)
    I have no idea why – but even if there were no muslims, the U.K may not be having many ‘white christmasses’ in a few generations.
    But current birth rates are unlikely to continue as statistically they are certain to change.
    Any short term spike in stastistical data tends to drop.
    If we take into acount food shortages, housing shortages, industry fleeing britain etc etc i’m sure things aren’t going to carry on as they are.
    The spike growth in immigrants I(and islam) is due to the immigration caused by U.Ks (attractivly high) GDP of recent history.
    We are currently in a rather gloomy recession.

    However – if old ‘whitey’ continues not to go forth and multiply england won’t be a predominantly white country anymore.
    Personally – i’ll most likely be dead probably by old age, a meteor strike or biological weapons attack and islamification of britain is not high on my list of priorities.

  94. Sorry to waffle but i expect sometime in the not so distant future that we will enter another ‘Dark ages’ (no pun intended) as in like briton around 600 ad.
    If we consider our populaion growth over a slightly longer period of time….

    Makind is approx 125,000 years old.
    The current explosion in population growth actually started at the time of the industrial revolution (300 years ago).
    Therefore statistically, compared to the preceeding 124,700 years… these modern times are actually a spike and almost certain to decline.
    As far as natural selection is concerned – will religion be of any benefit in the trying times ahead?

  95. Andrew you are a funny fellow. Is it unreasonable to for the ONS to count names spelt differently as different names, is it really a conspiracy?

    We would say not but we would accuse you or which ever journo’s work you’ve plagiarised of scare mongering. Mohammed or variations of the spelling is the most popular Muslim boys name by far – adding the total number of babies named that or a variation and that coming towards the top of most popular names points to one thing – The lack of variety in Muslims boys names, nothing more, nothing less.

    Add all the Muslim names together registered in 2008 gives a total of 6591 out of a total of 362,963 which is 1.8% which hardly supports the ridiculous assertions in your comment does it? If we also consider that Muslims make up 3.3% of the population, about 2million it would appear that in terms of birth rate the Muslim population is shrinking.

    If anyone wants to look at the actual data it is available here http://www.statistics.gov.uk/statbase/Product.asp?vlnk=15282

    As the saying goes, there’s lies, downright lies and statistics.

  96. I don’t like islam and I make no apologies for that. I have no axe to grind with any refugee who is fleeing persecution, but thats another debate. Anyone who comes to this country should be under no illusion that the UK is a Christian Country, yet we see many areas in towns & cities that are little more than ghettos where the majority of inhabitants cant, or refuse to speak English. I would hate Lichfield to become another Tower Hamlets, Dewsbury, Batley, etc et al but if it does, it will start with the mosque, it’s the thin end of the wedge. You may be an Unconcerned Citizen but I am among a growing number who is very concerned. Since 2001 thanks to a government who has consistently ignored the majority, islam has become the fastest growing religion in the UK (perhaps this why the name Muhamed is the second most popular boys name in the UK, just a thought) Vociferous muslims have cottoned on to this PC government, they have realised that being aggresive and demanding pays dividends, which is why I say a mosque in Lichfield is sadly inevitable.

  97. Quote…”Muhammad is now second only to Jack as the most popular name for baby boys in Britain and is likely to rise to No 1 by next year, a study by The Times has found”
    or this from the Telegraph, quote…”The Islamic name overtook traditional choices like Jack, Thomas and Daniel to become the number one name in the West Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber, and the North West, as well as in the capital, in 2008″.

    Perhaps if the people who are “unconcerned” had worked in an islamic country and seen the religion of peace first hand they would be a little more concerned about the spread of islam in Europe and in particular, in the UK.

  98. We’re concerned Andrew, concerned for your critical thinking abilities. Are you really suggesting that we look at the data for names chosen to work out trends in population? What if people started naming their kids Orinoco, would you be up in arms about Wombles taking over?

    You do know the ethnic, racial and religious backgrounds of babies registered is recorded as well don’t you? Can you share an analysis of that data with us as well please or hasn’t a journo on a slow Friday afternoon reported those for you?

  99. Andrew –
    You give me the impression you have worked in these islamic countries.
    I don’t undrestand why you have such negative views of islamic countries yet you were happy to profit from them.

    What are these countries you are refering to? and how did you get out alive? it sounds like a riveting adventure.

  100. As I have said previously, I have worked in three islamic countries the worst being Saudi which for any reasonably open minded person is hell on earth thanks to islam, I worked there once, I could have gone back but refused. Unless you are a muslim you are considered a pig or a kuffer. It was common to see the “Religious Police” beating foreign workers in the street for not paying strict enough observance to medievil islamic customs. In Dhahran we were spared the horror of watching a public beheading because we were westerners but the “Religious Police” forced the locals including children to watch some poor wretch having his head cut off. This is real islam. Islam is totally intolerant of any other religion or faith regardless of country and I truly wish some of you do gooders knew what the hell you were talking about. If muslims were willing to integrate and become a part of this “richly diverse multicultural shangri la” that the government has created then I would not object so much, but they are not. If you went to Saudi and demonstrated for a church you would be lucky to get away with a beating before being thrown into some fetid prison without a trial. Yet in this country we bend over backwards to accomodate the very people who in an islamic country would persecute you, politically correct madness. And sadly grist to the mill for the BNP.

  101. “The Real Islam” ? ?
    Im sure many islamic migrants may come here hoping to leave this sort of thing behind.

    A few points of yours from a different perspective..
    The issue of foriegn workers taking lucrative jobs you are refering to – i nearly got into a fight in south wales for this similar situation.
    The brutal beheadings you talk of – many people here often say bring back hanging, the birch or even ‘cut their hands off, they won’t do it again’. Hangings often had a public gallery as far a i’m aware.
    The last hanging occured here in 1964 – 45 years is not a long time at all regarding a nations social changes. America still electrocutes people in some states, along with lethal injection.
    Quite brutal and america is so very Christian as far as G W Bush as his mission from god made me aware.

    There are claims people here in the U.K have been beaten, tortured and imprisoned without a trial (these are generally terrorist suspects but probably the same people you claim we bend over backwards to accomodate).

    However – im not advocating a religious government in any way nor any of the practices described – but you are talking about somewhere else and resorting to predictions from current trends.
    These ‘current trends’ are exactly that – current trends which can change tomorrow – predictions can be made – but not as far into the future as what you are doing.

    A hard fact of the matter is that there wont be enough food if populations grow to the levels needed for an ‘islamic’ take over of the U.K. (dont forget we import our food from other countries – whos populations are growing too). (there are already world food shortages occuring – have you not noticed recent price increases?)
    Pesticides are an oil product – enough said on population predictions.
    Most scientist agree the population of the world wont grow beyond this century.

    I predict a nightmarishly bleak future – but its nothing to do with islam.

  102. For goodness sake please don’t try to compare Saudi to the UK. The last beheading in the UK was in 1747, the last beheading in Saudi was probably today, witrh lots more to follow. Islam has not moved on.

  103. We can’t see the point you’re trying to make by telling us about the activities of people on the other side of the world and how that relates to life here in Lichfield.

    We can give you concrete details of Catholic priests in various places committing obscene acts against children. We can give you concrete examples of how they used their influence within communities including exploiting the deference of local police to get away with such activity for many years. By your simplistic logic we should be demanding the closure of the Catholic church on Dimbles lane.

    You’re labouring under the mistaken idea that Islam is one monolithic organisation that interprets scripture in a uniform and global fashion. It doesn’t.

    If we bring this back to Lichfield, the place this article which your commenting on is concerned with we find there is no mosque, there are no planning applications to build a mosque and the Muslim at the centre of the issue, Abdul Salam is an attention seeker with a 25 year history in the city.

    He isn’t building a mosque, he’s digging himself a hole.

  104. I can’t believe your allowing these ignorant, small-minded individuals rant on this blog with their racist views. In fact i am appalled!!!!!! I have lived in London all my life, but am having to move up to the Midlands. I was actually researching Lichfield online to see if it would be a nice place to build a home. My word, if i have to deal with ridiculous racists such as those who have abused this public web blog, I WILL DEFINATELY NOT BE COMING TO LICHFIELD. Or maybe i should come, and educate the fools! :o)

  105. But i don’t have a problem with multi-cultural England. But seeing as you do, practice as you preach ….and leave if you wish… unfortunately i am not sure that what your looking for exists in these modern times (anywhere in the world). As they say, the worlds a small place…… good luck with the hunt!

  106. For christ sake when will you left wing naysaying appeasers understand that the multi cultural ethnically diverse shangri – la the government has been telling us about for the past decade does not exist. Even the government are now saying immigration policy over the past decade was wrong. Get with the programme, the government have, at last. Of course if there was not an election soon they would still be peddling the myth that an open door immigration policy was good for the economy.

  107. I would advise moving to either Small Heath, Ladywood, Sparkhill, Lozells, Pleck, Caldmore, or Palfrey.

    Ah it makes me laugh they love their multi culti but then look for somewhere nice to live relatively untouched by it. Then suggest that anyone who disagrees with them should be gagged even if they are making lawful points.

    Maladroit were the words Alan Johnson used and meanwhile it is admitted that open door immigration was a political game for the left to fulfil their fantasies. Grayling is considering re-introducing the primary purpose rule and capping immigration at 50,000 people per year if elected, which says it all really. Baroness Warsi also agreed that their had been to much immigration on Question Time.

  108. Immigration and multiculturalism are not the same thing. There’s a connection but this makes no difference going forward whatever happens with regard to immigration policy.

    What are people talking about here when they use the word multiculturalism anyway. The fact of people from different cultural backgrounds living in the same place or political multiculturalism that creates interest groups based race ethnicity and religion? They have the same name but are very different things.

  109. Have you noticed how many ministers have been on the TV recently admitting that immigration policy over the past decade was wrong. A fact that 75% of the electorate have been saying for a long time, but now with an election around the corner it’s suddenly time to listen the the majority. Well I’m afraid it’s far too late, Blair and Browns politically correct anti English agenda has damaged this country more than most people know and not only ensured the end for Labour on May 6th but has put the BNP on the front page time and time again. Nick Griffin has a lot to thank intransogent politicians for.

  110. I can only hope that a Conservative government implements some fair and sensible policies which result in the BNP withering in the same way that the NF did in the 1980’s.

  111. Frank, the only way the BNP will wither and die is for the government to stop ignoring the vast majority of people who never wanted the country flooded with immigrants. This is not rocket science. For years the government have been telling us how great mass immigration is for the country while screaming racist at anyone who questions an insane immigration policy. Anyyone with an IQ in double figures can see the damaging effect of mass immigration, but with a general election months away the government now feel desperate enough to finally tell the truth about the mythical benefits of immigration. People are considering the BNP not because they are racists or extremists but because like me they feel totally ignored by mainstream politicians. For the record I am an ex lifelong Labour voter and card carrying member of the Labour party, but no more, I never voted for this.

  112. Anti immigration is not racism. Immigration is not a race issue it is a class issue. When people talk about immigration being good for the economy they mean good for profit. The bigger the labour supply the lower the wages, simple supply and demand. Working class people have seen there material conditions suffer as a direct result of immigration since the expansion of the EU in 2004.

    The QT which Griffin appeared on had 4 audience members object to open door immigration from the expanded EU, 2 white 1 black and 1 Asian. Immigration and the economic affect it has on working class people is nothing whatever to do with race. Abdul Salam and his imaginary mosque have nothing to do with immigration.

  113. Why are my comments awaiting moderation? no doubt some one has complained and naturally you must appease anyone who screams racist. You gutless wonders. I will comment no more.

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